Sam Daws, Senior Advisor of the Oxford Martin Initiative for AI Governance at the University of Oxford and Director of Multilateral AI, attended the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue (2025)" series hosted by Renmin University of China, with the Institute of Finance and Economics at Renmin University and the Global Leadership Academy as co-organizers.
During the event, Sam Daws had in-depth exchanges with Wang Wen, Director of the Institute of Finance and Economics at Renmin University, around the theme of "Chinese Modernization, New Momentum for Globalization." This dialogue focused on topics such as AI development, global governance, and Sino-European cooperation, providing new perspectives for improving the global governance system.
Wang Wen: Welcome to all old and new friends to continue paying attention to the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue 2025." Last year at this time, we were also here introducing many friends from Europe and the United States. Today, we are very honored to invite a very experienced and renowned thinker and scholar, Mr. Sam Daws from the University of Oxford in the UK, who has a British gentleman's style.
Over the past few days, I have been almost together with Mr. Daws, first going to Shanghai, then Wenzhou in Zhejiang, and finally returning to Beijing. We visited many high-quality Chinese companies and communicated with thousands of young Chinese scholars - this is the core of the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue," hoping that guests can deeply understand China by visiting many cities in China and contacting different people in China, better promoting the exchange and mutual understanding between China and Europe, the United States, and other countries' strategic academic circles. Mr. Daws, the first question, what is your deepest impression from coming to China to participate in the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue" over the past four or five days?
Sam Daws: Thank you very much, President Wang Wen. It is a great honor and joy for me to participate in the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue 2025." These days have been an extraordinary experience for me, where I learned a lot about Chinese culture, Chinese thoughts, and the determination and enthusiasm of Chinese youth, who hope to make China better and the world better. I also learned a lot about the innovation in China's industrial sectors, especially in the field of artificial intelligence (AI) technology and AI governance.
The digital and intelligent level of China is exciting, and scientific and technological achievements should be people-oriented
Wang Wen: I remember a few days ago, we visited a future factory in Zhejiang, where there was almost no worker on site, and the robots completed the entire process from raw materials to finished products. At that time, I found that everyone who visited this future factory was very surprised, including me, as I had never visited a future factory or a fully automated factory before. So, what was your feeling at that time? Did you feel that China's manufacturing was too "fearful"?
Sam Daws: Yes, I felt excited at the scene. I also realized that automation and artificial intelligence will bring many changes to people's daily lives and employment, not only for China but also for Western countries and other countries around the world. We will gain higher efficiency from automation and artificial intelligence, while ensuring that the benefits brought by these advancements can benefit the people. I believe that China is now very concerned about this, and Western countries should also do so. In short, these (automation and artificial intelligence) achievements in China are exciting.
Europe is in a "between China and the US" moment, but "decoupling from China" will backfire
Wang Wen: Over the past two years, when Western media reports on Chinese manufacturing, the mainstream discourse has almost always been two words: one is "Over Capacity" (excess capacity), the second is "De-risk" (reducing risk). How do you view the evaluations of China's manufacturing and economic development by some Western media and think tanks?
Sam Daws: I think these voices exist partly because Europe has also been hit by American tariffs, and European exports to the United States have been blocked. On the other hand, Europe is also worried that the US-China tariff war could lead to Chinese exports to the US being blocked, thus causing competitive Chinese products to turn to Europe, challenging local companies. For example, China's photovoltaic products and technologies are world-leading, and the EU has also imposed tariffs on Chinese photovoltaic products. However, I see that the Chinese government has already realized that some manufacturing industries have excess capacity and is actively managing it, and I am very much looking forward to the results of this management.
Wang Wen: Therefore, on these levels, we indeed need mutual understanding, mutual understanding, and mutual adjustment. Only through effective dialogue can we each make more adjustment measures. It seems that pressure and tension still exist between China and Europe, and between China and the entire Western world. How do you view the current relationship between China and the West? What about the Sino-US relationship?
Sam Daws: I think that Western policymakers, especially Americans, have different perspectives. For example, the US imposes export controls on China because they are anxious about China's rapid rise, and therefore they are formulating export control measures under the pretext of reducing risks, protecting key supply chains, or protecting national security. China's perception of these Western policies as containment is understandable. I think the most constructive approach is for both sides to have a clear understanding of each other's views, accept each other's reasonable security concerns, and avoid permanent decoupling policies. In fact, this means trying to narrow the scope of control and combining it with measures to build mutual trust, otherwise it will backfire.
Take my work in the AI field as an example, we can cooperate in AI to promote public interest and address common challenges, such as climate change, public health, and epidemic prevention. For Europe, this is a moment of being "sandwiched between China and the US", the EU wants to expand trade with China while wanting to maintain strategic autonomy towards China and the US, but the US has been imposing tariffs on Europe. The world is currently in a very uncertain situation.
Global governance faces "hollowing out," but global cooperation is a "must"
Wang Wen: Yes, I think that European scholars should all be like you, often good at dialogue and communication. For China, sometimes we feel confused, now it's getting harder to communicate with European and American countries. Sometimes when I invite Americans and European friends to come to China, they say, "I can't come, it's very dangerous in China!" Especially the British and Americans feel that China is very dangerous. How do you view such statements?
Sam Daws: At least based on my experience of the past week, China is a very safe place, and we have been warmly welcomed. I think it may be due to "commercial interests," for example, the US issued so-called "Entity List," leading to anxiety among American business people. But from the European perspective, the actual situation is not like this. I think it is more due to misunderstandings about China. Therefore, the "Mingde Strategic Dialogue" is doing a very positive thing, which is to let Chinese and Western people truly understand each other, which is the first step in rebuilding trust.
Wang Wen: The "Mingde Strategic Dialogue" is committed to real contact and feelings among the people, better discussing a common response plan to deal with global crises and challenges, and building necessary trust. You just mentioned the anxiety, which is actually due to the lack of trust between each other, which has led to global governance becoming "hollowed out." How do you see this?
Sam Daws: Yes, global governance is difficult now, but global cooperation is still very important and essential. Because we live on the same planet, we face common challenges in climate, biodiversity, health, food, security, agriculture, peace, and conflict. Therefore, we need international institutions. However, some countries are increasingly doubting the value of these "top-down" laws and regulations. Therefore, maintaining a multilateral system requires proposing new innovative ways of cooperation. I think a very positive phenomenon is that some new multilateral science platforms are being established now, such as the UN has established mechanisms and platforms related to AI, and China has also promoted the establishment of international organizations for AI governance.
What impact does the US withdrawal from global governance have?
Wang Wen: Yes, what you said is very important. Regarding global governance, we have many areas for cooperation. The most serious problem in global governance now is the US withdrawal. In the past six months, the US has continuously withdrawn from the Paris Agreement, the UN Human Rights Council, the World Health Organization, and UNESCO, which has caused great shocks to global governance. How do you view these phenomena?
Sam Daws: We are living in an era that is full of challenges for "rules-based order," and traditional multilateral organizations are also facing challenges. It must be recognized that although the US has indeed withdrawn from some institutions, it is still an active member and contributor to many other UN specialized agencies. There are still 192 UN member states actively participating in relevant UN work. So, there is still a lot we can do. For the US, for example, although the federal government has indeed withdrawn from the Paris Agreement, California, New York, and other states are still actively participating in the transition to net-zero emissions through mayors and state legislatures.
Wang Wen: Yes, perhaps we do have some space for improvement in cooperation, but can the US return to the family of global governance and come back?
Sam Daws: I must admit that I consider myself a proponent of liberal internationalism, but I also must respect and understand Donald Trump's election. However, I also realize that in a democratic country, we need to listen to the voice of the people. Trump was elected by emphasizing the importance of family, faith, religion, and patriotism. Therefore, I think we need to redefine the value of international cooperation for those people in the middle of the US who feel left behind, which is part of the effort to get everyone back to the negotiation table.
Take controlling climate change as an example, if we can clarify that energy transition is highly related to energy security, we can resonate with people who are concerned about the cost and uncertainty of energy transition. In this way, people with moderate to right-leaning views will also support actions to combat climate change. Therefore, I think we need empathy and also need to be more creative in how we design international institutions and systems.
China does not speak lightly, but keeps its promises
Wang Wen: Yes. However, when cooperation with the US encounters difficulties, there are strategic opportunities for Sino-European cooperation in global governance. What additional opportunities do you see for Sino-European cooperation in global governance? What new opportunities do Sino-European countries now face that can make their global governance cooperation smoother?
Sam Daws: I think the timing for strengthening Sino-European cooperation is very good. First, increase trade cooperation and increase the volume of trade in products and services between Europe, the UK, and China. Second, joint actions to address climate change and biodiversity. Third, prevention of global health crises. Fourth, working together to resolve conflicts around the world and in Africa, for example, better cooperation in resolving local conflicts in Africa. China is now more actively involved in UN peacekeeping operations and regional mediation, and can also strengthen cooperation. Fifth, strengthen scientific cooperation. I think science has become equal to international law, becoming an important test of international collaboration and cooperation. Under the consent of the relevant countries, we can use scientific data and facts to examine whether different countries have fulfilled their international commitments.
China is one of the few countries, almost the only one, that "acts more than commits" on the issue of climate change, which is very admirable. In the United Nations, new AI science groups, efforts to protect biodiversity, and other initiatives are developing vigorously. I think these are areas of common concern in this era of geopolitical turbulence, and these are fields that can enhance Sino-European cooperation.
"Belt and Road" and "Chinese AI" are impressive
Wang Wen: Now, China also hopes to participate more in global governance. Over the past decade, it has been a decade in which China has continuously participated in and gradually led global governance. In 2008, China first participated in the G20 Summit, in 2016, China first hosted the G20 Summit, in 2013, China proposed the "Belt and Road" initiative, and in September 2025, China proposed the "Global Governance Initiative," which is the fourth major global initiative proposed by President Xi Jinping—namely, the "Global Development Initiative," the "Global Security Initiative," and the "Global Civilization Initiative." How do you view China's participation in global governance, and how do you interpret the "Global Governance Initiative"?
Sam Daws: I think (China's participation in global governance) is very positive. As you said, China has made contributions in at least three aspects.
First, contributions to the United Nations institutions. China has deployed more peacekeeping personnel than the total number of the other four permanent members of the UN Security Council. In the next three years, China's contribution to the UN budget will match that of the United States. In fact, as the US reduces its budget, China will surpass the US in peacekeeping contributions and be on par with the US in regular budgets. Japan's budget has already exceeded 50%, which is quite remarkable. I think this is very positive.
As you said, China has invested in the United Nations institutions in three dimensions. China's peacekeeping personnel exceed the total of the other four permanent members of the Security Council. Within three years, it will be on par with the United States, as it is the largest contributor to the UN budget. In fact, due to the US's budget cuts, China will surpass the US in peacekeeping contributions and be on par with the US in regular budgets. Therefore, these countries plus Japan have contributed more than 50% of the UN regular budget, which is a remarkable number.
Second, China indeed supports the development of regional organizations. For example, the partnership with African countries, helping the African Union establish a new headquarters in Addis Ababa. I think these regional organizations have made positive contributions to innovation and growth in the multilateral system. These treaty-based regional organizations play a positive role in multilateral mediation, trade, and building trust through reaching common agreements.
Third, as you mentioned, the "Chinese initiatives" reflect a multi-level inheritance and development. The global development, security, civilization, or the current global AI governance initiative are all important supplements rather than alternatives to the UN agenda. Therefore, I think the most successful aspects of China's "Belt and Road" and other initiatives lie in their ability to well integrate into existing international pathways, such as the Sustainable Development Goals and the Paris Agreement climate goals.
Additionally, for developing countries, China's greatest contribution is how to view its development—less aid, more investment. China focuses particularly on sustainable and people-centered investments. Although there are challenges in sustainable development and debt, China has consistently cooperated with developing countries to try to solve these issues, establishing important pathways to address practical problems.
Also, seeing China's new AI action plan in the field of global governance is very exciting. China has made special contributions to the dissemination and use of AI in developing countries, adopting an open-source approach that allows countries to modify the models to suit their local cultures, environments, and languages. The Chinese model provides a "full-stack" model that developing countries can afford, offering integrated computing products—algorithm products + data products. In contrast, Western AI products are very modular, and developing countries must purchase each module separately and invest more effort and cost in system integration. Therefore, China enables developing countries to "use AI well," making a significant contribution to bridging the digital divide.
AI makes every industry more efficient, but AI governance must be people-centered
Wang Wen: Another point of concern is AI. Now, AI development has made people feel that "the future is here." Looking back, AI not only brings opportunities but also many challenges. Musk said that if AI continues to develop like this, it may replace humans. How do you view the challenge that AI poses to humans currently?
Sam Daws: This is a very wise question. Artificial intelligence has the potential to change humanity, but it also brings challenges and risks. As for the benefits, it can make almost every industry more efficient, and the challenges that come with it are that when people are replaced by automation, we need to ensure that they have well-being and jobs in other areas.
The second benefit of artificial intelligence is to bring major breakthroughs in technological innovation. There have been many applications in recent years. For example, in the field of materials science, it can completely change the way energy is produced and stored; in the medical field, we can provide personalized free medicine for the poorest people in the world; in education, people at various stages of development can receive education; in environmental research, we have models that support climate change, and more models to support maintaining biodiversity.
But there are many challenges. We are facing the challenge of artificial intelligence safety. Algorithms may have biases, and in the future, they may no longer align with human values; terrorists are using artificial intelligence to develop biological or chemical weapons. These are problems that we as a human species need to collaborate to solve. The potential risks of artificial intelligence are greater, it may go out of control and abandon humanity. I think this is possible, and we cannot let AI dominate humanity. There is so much we need to do, both focusing on achieving benefits and realistically cooperating on risks.
Wang Wen: Therefore, China has an open attitude in the process of AI development, but also maintains cautious actions. For this reason, President Xi also proposed the "Global AI Governance Initiative." So, in the process of global governance of AI, what roles do China, the US, and Europe play, according to you?
Sam Daws: Indeed, we can see that different approaches have certain differences, but these approaches can complement each other. The UK is at the forefront of AI safety, holding the Blackley Summit two years ago, where a scientific report on AI safety was presented. Now, countries such as China, the UK, the US, Singapore, and Kenya have established AI safety agencies. Here, both leadership and more cooperation are needed. For example, Europe places a high emphasis on AI regulation, such as the EU's AI Act legislation, but the EU realizes that it may be overly regulated in certain areas, and we can learn from this.
China also has its own relevant laws, and China is not only involved in AI software, but also in transitioning to "embodied intelligence"—especially in factories, robots, automation, and perhaps even higher-level bio-intelligence in the future. For example, brain-computer interfaces actually apply a specially designed AI chip, not from silicon semiconductors, but from the body itself, which may happen in 15 or 20 years. Every region in the world has different contributions. Under Trump, the US has taken a very sovereign, commercial, and competitive approach to AI. But what gives me a bit of reassurance is that Americans are still paying attention to the need for AI to remain safe.
There is another common issue, which is that we all need to spend a lot of water and electricity to run AI and train them to reason. Therefore, I think there are common interests in more energy-efficient AI software and hardware design and data application. Therefore, I think we can find areas for cooperation through various methods.
Competition in AI between China and the US, who will win in the end?
Wang Wen: We have more discussions on the competition between China and the US in the AI field. How do you view the final outcome of the competition between China and the US in the AI field? Will China win or will the US win?
Sam Daws: I would not describe this process as "who will win," I think we need to think about this within a certain framework. I think the US's new AI action plan focuses on AI dominance, but it actually applies only to a small part of AI, which is a competition in advanced AI models, such as humanoid chat, GPT, deep search, etc. In this direction, China is catching up, but I think the US models are still advanced in these areas.
However, China has already taken the lead in specific applications and the dissemination of technology to developing countries. This is because of the cost, full-stack applications, and cultural fit that I mentioned earlier. In these areas, China leads. In many practical applications of AI, China realizes that we don't need the latest chips, we don't need the latest models. We need to consider how to apply AI to the benefits and challenges of real life—whether in factories, education systems, or health systems. So, although there are many discussions about the competition between China and the US who will win, if both countries focus on doing their own things, the benefits for the world will be huge and positive. What we need to avoid is the splitting and division of the AI ecosystems between China and the West.
Wang Wen: The last question, let's imagine, as you know, Renmin University launched the "Humanity 2050" research program. What will AI be like in 2050, and what will the world be like? Will AI dominate humans? What will the world's structure be like in 2050? Which country will be the most powerful in the world, and what will the future international economic and technological structures look like?
Sam Daws: I hope that humanity will become wiser and more moral. We are still facing many challenges, whether it is managing artificial intelligence, climate, biodiversity, health, or more complicated issues such as trust and international security. They are not technical problems, but moral and ethical problems. When I was in China, I was told a saying by Confucius, "The wise enjoy water, the benevolent enjoy mountains." I really like this saying, so I have been thinking about what kind of transformation humans themselves need to undergo by 2050. We need the curiosity that drives us forward like water, but we also need the stability in the ethical framework like mountains. I think this is the real challenge. However, I am optimistic that we will learn to use various new technologies to make humanity better. We can find ways to respect each other's languages, cultures, and governance systems through AI, thereby actually evolving a way to achieve a more harmonious and better coexistence.
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