Westermann: Trump will only accelerate the decline of American hegemony; no foreign country should interfere in Brazil's internal affairs.

On July 6-7 local time, the 17th BRICS Leaders' Summit was held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and an important declaration was reached. Soon after, U.S. President Trump, who has long been discontent with the BRICS organization, announced that he would impose a 50% tariff on Brazil, effective from August 1.

How does Brazil view Trump's new "tariff stick"? What is the potential for Sino-Brazilian cooperation? What role can the BRICS organization play in a world with increasingly prominent contradictions? How can Brazil leverage its unique advantages as an international mediator?

Regarding these topics, "Beijing Dialogue" had a conversation with Gustavo Westmann, Director of the Office of International Affairs of the Brazilian Presidency, bringing his insights.

【Text: Gustavo Westmann, Interviewer: Li Zexi】

Observer Network: Starting from August 1, Brazil will face a 50% tariff imposed by the United States. U.S. President Trump said this move was partly motivated by the prosecution of former President Bolsonaro. Yesterday, President Lula signed a trade reciprocity law, and we will soon see the details. In addition to this, what other measures has Brazil taken to counter or resist this sudden trade aggression by the United States?

Westmann: Well, this is a very complex question, but I think the key is not about retaliation, but about correcting the course. Trump's unilateral sanctions or measures are completely out of sync with the current global order.

First of all, we are talking about a sovereign country, a sovereign nation with a strong democracy, a democratic tradition, and a legal system that has its own independence, and we're prosecuting former President Bolsonaro for his attempt at a coup d'etat. No foreign country should have the intention of influencing such a process, considering that it's been following the democratic track. So that's the first part of it.

Director of the Office of International Affairs of the Brazilian Presidency, Gustavo Westmann

Secondly, Brazil's consistent position is to negotiate through diplomatic channels and strive to find solutions to various disputes. But in this case, we are ready to take reciprocal measures, with the core being to impose equivalent tariffs on American products in Brazil.

More importantly, looking at the medium and long term, we need to start or strengthen the strategy of diversifying partnerships. In this regard, China plays a very special role. I think Trump's tariffs will only accelerate the inevitable decline of American hegemony. We will also submit this case to multilateral institutions responsible for dealing with such matters, such as the World Trade Organization (WTO), and other institutions recognized globally for their mediation roles or for assessing global issues. This is what we are doing, and we are very calm about it. I think this is entirely politically motivated, and no foreign country should interfere in our internal affairs. This is our assessment.

Observer Network: You mentioned that Brazil's mindset may not be about retaliation, but more about correcting the course. Following this line of thought, President Lula's initial response, which I quote verbatim, was: "Trump could have called (to communicate), but instead posted the tariff news on his website — this is a typical example of his lack of respect for everyone." So, first of all, do you think that lack of respect is the main issue? I feel that this statement shows Brazil's first reaction was indeed trying to find a way out. Similarly, the vice president recently also mentioned offering the U.S. a trade proposal, but the U.S. has not responded yet. So is that how Brazil is thinking about this?

Westmann: That's the key issue. Trump's behavior pattern makes him... I'm very confident that in future history books, he will be remembered as one of the dumbest U.S. leaders. I'm very sure of this because he not only harms the world, but also harms the U.S. itself.

We are trying to deal with it calmly, because when handling foreign policy — of course, emotions are always involved — but we must be rational and look ahead. I think what is being discussed here is a foreign leader attempting to interfere in our domestic proceedings that follow the legal process. That is the core issue. Much of what he announced and said is intended to influence the legal proceedings against former President Bolsonaro, who indeed attempted to lead a coup that included the assassination of President Lula, Vice President Alckmin, and Supreme Court Judge Alexandre de Moraes. That is the real issue. We are very clear: no country can influence judicial processes, and no threats will affect such procedures. However, we are very aware of the strength of the U.S., its importance, and its relevance to the Brazilian economy.

Therefore, I think it is certainly necessary to criticize, certainly to retaliate, certainly to express dissatisfaction with what he has done, but at the same time, to dialogue and try to find solutions and clearly inform the other party. If a solution cannot be found through dialogue, then all retaliatory measures will be implemented, and things will proceed like that.

On July 10 local time, demonstrators in São Paulo, Brazil, held a protest against Trump's announcement of tariffs on Brazil. Visual China

Observer Network: Obviously, Brazil is not the only country that has been slapped with tariffs. In addition to the general tariffs that have continued from the previous so-called Liberation Day, Trump also threatened to impose a 10% tariff on all BRICS countries, or basically any country that aligns with BRICS. Do you think this threat will be effective in any way, either by perhaps deterring some potential partners from working with BRICS, or perhaps undermining BRICS solidarity, or maybe it will have the opposite effect of motivating BRICS?

Westmann: First of all, if this issue bothers him so much, that actually means that the BRICS is gaining relevance, right? That's a good thing, and that's something we must celebrate. The BRICS was created as an alternative to the current global order, and we are successfully building this new order. That's the first point. If the U.S. is so upset, that means the BRICS is working. And that's good, a reason to celebrate.

Regarding the tariff threat, first of all, it's very difficult to determine whether what he's saying is serious or not. Since the beginning of his administration, he has already promised things and then gone back on them, changing his mind repeatedly. So we don't really know what his intentions are. That's something to think about. I definitely don't think it will have a negative impact on the BRICS. On the contrary, I'm pretty confident that we will strengthen the commercial and political ties among BRICS nations. By doing so, I'm very confident that it will attract the attention of other nations and partners, prompting them to also seek partner diversification and consider the BRICS as a good starting point. So actually, in the end, it will be a good thing, reflecting the strength of the BRICS in the current global order.

Observer Network: There have also been reports that the mayor of Rio wants to set up a BRICS headquarters in Rio. This report brings to mind discussions about the institutionalization of the BRICS. Some people are very supportive of having a headquarters to advance the BRICS, giving it a structure; others are concerned that it might bureaucratize the organization, make it less efficient, and possibly make it more rigid. Even aside from the issue of where to locate a potential BRICS headquarters, what is your view on whether we should even have a BRICS headquarters?

Westmann: I think we are very far from that kind of discussion in the BRICS. We are now discussing the institutional improvement of the group, which involves discussions on the new roles of new members, so there are many things under discussion, but we are very far from establishing an institution or creating a secretariat or permanent secretariat for this; frankly speaking, that's a discussion that has to be done by all members together. The timing is not the best one for that, I believe, and again, we are very far from that.

It's difficult to say. I think we're very far from that. Anything we say about creating a permanent secretariat will be speculation. The members cannot even decide whether the next presidencies or how the next presidencies are going to work; imagine how a permanent secretariat works. I wouldn't bother dipping into this discussion right now, but that's some part of discussion to be taken forward in the next years, but calmly and discussed by all parties.

Observer Network: Looking back on the Rio leader summit and the events immediately before and after that, what would you say were the biggest results from Brazil's perspective? And also on the other hand, from Brazil's perspective, what are some perhaps misses or perhaps things that need further work?

Westmann: Let's say that the current global context is extremely complex; so I believe that having a leader's declaration, having three other declarations, one on intelligence, one of financing the fight on climate change, the other one on health, they all reflect a great effort and a great commitment of BRICS countries. So that was a victory. We cannot deny it. So definitely the fact of putting BRICS agenda on the radar and having concrete results on that is definitely something to celebrate.

July 7, 2025, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, President Lula speaks at the press conference of the 17th BRICS Summit. Visual China

From my personal perspective, what can I tell you that disappointed a little bit? Of course, we are always looking or searching for more ambition, right? So I would love to see a very ambitious declaration leading to more outcomes and condemning, for example, the Israeli attacks in Palestine or, well, so many other things.

But we should not forget, we must not forget that BRICS decisions are made based on consensus. So we have to work together on these things. But I think it was good. I think it was quite positive overall.

Observer Network: Moving to China-Brazil relations, one thing that's been recently discussed is a possibility of building a railway that links Chancay port with a port on the east coast of Brazil. So right now, apparently, it's just the start of feasibility studies. So from your perspective, what’s the feasibility of such a project, especially from an economic perspective?

Westmann: Well, I don't really know the details about it, but what I can tell you regarding this combination of variables. First of all, I think the relationship between Brazil and China have already improved quite a lot. The challenge now is to improve in terms of quality. Our bilateral trade is huge, but we still lack high technology products, or we need to add value to our trade, especially on the Brazilian side. I think also we need to work more strategically together, and that's something that has been improving in recent years. We have to bring together our societies, bring together our scientific parks, universities. So that's something that still has to improve.

The idea of working on a railway financed or with the Chinese technology in Brazilian territory sounds great. Brazil has a great location for trains. During the 60s, we made a wrong decision and we opted to roads and cars. and we're still paying the price for that bad choice in the current days. Brazil has the perfect territory for railways, and yet we only have cars, we have a very poor railway net. So I believe following all the legal processes involved, if China wins or if China is to be the main partner in this project, that will only increase our bilateral relations. So that's something good, something to incentivize from our side, from the government side. It has become very clear that Brazil and China have more to work closer together.

Observer Network: So you talked about bringing people from both sides together. And in May, when Lula visited Beijing, China offered a number of countries, including Brazil, visa-free access to China. Now, Brazil generally has a visa reciprocity system principle where generally any country that offers Brazil visa free access, Brazil does the same in exchange, and any country that stops offering Brazil visa free access, Brazil also stops offering visa free access in exchange. Given this, we should expect perhaps Brazil to soon offer Chinese visa-free access to Brazil. But that obviously hasn't happened before the BRICS Summit, so when could we expect this?

Westmann: Well, that's a more complex discussion and it's under responsibility of our colleagues from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Definitely on the radar, so something we've been discussing, and I think it's gonna happen, we just need to figure out when; I would expect it to happen soon, but it's a lot more complex. You should not forget that China has 1.3 billion people. So that's not such an obvious decision to be made, it involve lots of variables, and it has to be taken carefully, but yes, it's totally on the radar, and let's see. We should keep monitoring that.

Observer Network: In terms of Brazil's general international approach, I listened to you speak at a recent conference where you mentioned one of Brazil's big international agendas is to get opposing sides to sit down together and talk and negotiate, especially out of conflicts. Of course, it's not just Brazil that's been positioning themselves this way. India has been talking about this. Turkey has been talking about this. UAE, Saudi Arabia, even the U.S. under Trump, even though Trump participated in the Iran strike, later Trump positioned himself as kind of a peacemaker between Israel and Iran. China has also pushed a number of rapprochement deals in the Middle East. So, given all of these countries interested in serving as kind of a negotiator or facilitator of negotiations. What's special about Brazil that makes it a good partner to negotiate resolution? Perhaps could you mention progress in Brazil's Ukraine peace proposal, as well as you mentioned your desire to see some statement condemning Israel in its war on Gaza, perhaps is there some attempt by Brazil to get peace there?

Westmann: Well, let's say, before I answer, just stop and think. Which countries in the world would be able to moderate conflicts or to bring diverse opinions in such a polarized world together? Actually, there are very few. And Brazil would definitely come to everyone's mind as a first thing. Why is that?

On July 6 local time, Indian Prime Minister Modi and Brazilian President Lula talked at the BRICS Summit. Associated Press

Brazil has a great tradition of peaceful solution of conflicts. We have no wars, we have no enemies. We have a peaceful neighborhood. Brazil has been a member of the UN from its very foundation. Brazil has always positioned itself in terms of dialogue and conciliation. The leadership of President Lula, which is definitely one of the greatest leaders or statesmen in the current days, contributes to that, the fact that it comes from the people and he understands people. I think all these, of course, the regional leadership, economy, population, all these variables position Brazil as a country to be trusted. Of course, we have our problems. But when talking about great processes, Brazil is definitely a country to be trusted.

You mentioned a few other countries that are extremely important, of course. But for example, India; I lived in India. India has a problem with China. You've been in indirect conflict for quite a while. India has a problem with Pakistan. You mentioned South Arabia. Saudi Arabia has a great problem with some of its neighborhoods. You mentioned a few other countries. Well, the United Arab Emirates, such a small country, even though that's a very rich country. What kind of credibility in terms of leadership and moderation power they are bringing to the fore? I'm not saying bad things about these countries, definitely not. And I think every country that is willing to find peaceful solutions to the current conflict is contributing to that. But I'm pretty confident that Brazil has a strategic role in this sense.

That said, it depends, of course, on the conflict or the nations in conflict to accept the legitimacy of the country trying to moderate the conflict. What we say is that we are ready to offer our support as we've already done regionally and several other conflicts worldwide. But of course, it depends on these countries to accept or not our support and our offer.

Brazil and China have been seriously working on a peaceful solution to the war in Ukraine. We've been working together on that, even though we did not make significant progress so far. The discussions continue in New York between our permanent representatives to the UN, and things have been working out.

Regarding the Israeli war, the things are a bit more complex, because we understand that that's a clear genocide from Israel in Palestine, and that makes situations more difficult. It's not that we are for or against one or another, but we are condemning what's going on there. There is a clear conflict, a clear attempted genocide, and that should not be accepted in any case. So that's how Brazil has been positioned itself, and I believe we have great conditions to contribute, but it will, of course, depend on the nations in conflict.

Observer Network: So you mentioned working with China on getting peace in Ukraine. Is Brazil also working with the current US administration, which seems to be, at least until recently, very much for peace in that conflict?

Westmann: Not really. Currently, our relations with the U.S. are not at their best for obvious reasons. And the way the U.S. has been positioning itself is extremely authoritarian, even though they are a democracy. So they're not really dialoguing with other nations in search for partnerships in solving the current conflict. So we're just monitoring things, but no, we are not working close with the US in these processes.

Observer Network: You mentioned your former role in Brazil’s embassy in India, working in the trade office. Obviously, this would be direct involvement in the connective tissue that ties BRICS countries together. Could you talk a bit about that, describe what you did?

Westmann: I think the main thing out of these this experience, and thinking about BRICS, is having the opportunity to understand this country. I think by living in India—and I've been to China many, many times already—And by traveling, by knowing, by visiting, by understanding a little bit the societies of these countries, we better understand how BRICS makes sense and how we indeed can work together. To many people, it's still too far away. In your case, for example, you just came to Brazil. So you see, despite differences, you also see the potential of the relations between our nations and working together. In India, something that called my attention—and that's one of the cornerstones of BRICS—is that you see the world changing, you see the development going on; you see the same in China, like if you stay away from Shanghai just a couple of years, when you go back, the city, the landscape is already different, because progress is ongoing. That's something you don't see in Europe, and that's something you don't see in the US, especially Europe, that's the old—it's not bad, it's just the old. BRICS is the new, is the progress, the transformation, the new center of the world economy and consequently in the future of the political reality. So I think that's what I took the most from my experience at the Trade Office at the Embassy of Brazil in India.

On July 6 local time, the 17th BRICS Leaders' Summit was officially opened in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Bloomberg

Observer Network: You first raised a question, how does BRICS make sense? And I suppose, listening to your response, your answer to that question would be that what all BRICS countries have in common is this sense of progress, of change. So what does that mean? What are the implications of this progress, what does mean in terms of cooperating each other, what does that mean in terms of the agendas, and also for BRICS as an organization?

Westmann: To start with, these are the countries that are changing the world from inside. The new middle class of the world is coming from these countries. Technology, progress is coming from these countries. So there is a lot going on in BRICS nations. That means that the potential of these countries as trade partners, as political partners, as economics and finance partners, as cultural allies, we will increase. In my vision, and that's important to say, if you see the data historically, where the economy starts booming, then later it comes political and soft power influence. So we are still, especially led by China, of course, also by India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, if we take into consideration that these countries will be the engine of the world economy in the next decades and centuries, you have to admit that as a consequence, they will also be leading the world politically, financially. And by start working together now, I think we will be more mature when this moment comes, when the moment comes for us to finally have a more just and fair international order, as BRICS was born, that's the nature that brought us together as BRICS nations: to change the world, to make sure that 50% of the world GDP is effectively listened to or be part of the decision-making. So that's how I see these things.

Observer Network: In terms of international or even domestic justice, one thing that's very close to President Lula's heart is the idea of an international tax on the super rich. And this was something that was raised in G20 last year. And this year, I remember you raised it in a conference, and Haddad also raised this in the NDB annual forum. Of course, in the months that have elapsed since G20, there has been a change in the global landscape on this, especially now that we probably can't expect any degree of cooperation from the U.S., and perhaps the U.S. might even be totally against this and might even attack this process. So how would Brazil push for this given the new geopolitical and international landscape?

Westmann: Well, Jersey, we'll keep pushing. What's going on in the world is extremely unfair and it doesn't make sense at all. So the recent data has shown that from 2015 to 2022, the wealth of the 1% richest people in the world increased by $33 trillion. This amount of money could have solved the problem of extreme poverty and hunger in the world. It could have solved so many, the climate change problem in the world. And why? What is happening with these resources?

So in the past, in the economic theory, some people used to say that you have to first to increase the size of the cake and then you split it accordingly. History has shown that this doesn't work. Once you increase the size of the cake, you make the wealthy even wealthier, and you will increase the social gap between human beings.

So we will insist on taxing the super-rich, and of course, so many other things we're talking about, issues such as debt, that has become the greatest challenge to development in the current days. When you see the people in the Global South, pay over 1.4 trillion in the services of debt to the North, while receiving less than $200 billion in official assistance to development.

So what we are doing in the world, is we are seeing the negative flux of capital, the South sending resources to the North. And that's not working.

Another thing is the reform of the financial governance, the financial architecture. We are underrepresented in these processes. Taxation, of course, that includes the taxation of super-rich, but also cooperation in other matters. So we are very concerned about all these issues. And you keep pushing the agenda. Taxation of super-rich is not simple because we don't have international institutions to tax the super-rich, on where to put these resources and how to expand the resource. We still don't have this governance model. But we are working on national solutions to the taxation of super rich, the creation of global funds. And that should be a priority to every nation.

Workers in Goiás state, Brazil, harvest soybeans. Visual China

Observer Network: We opened with a question on Trump interfering in Brazil's upcoming elections. Now, a lot of international coverage over BRICS and looking forward to the upcoming COP30 has hypothesized that President Lula intends to use these to shore up his foreign policy credentials for the upcoming elections. So how accurate would you describe these report, and regardless of how accurate it is, how effective might Lula positioning himself as someone who can bring many countries together to talk about important issues, how effective would that be in helping him get more support electorally?

Westmann: Oh man, that's tough; I think that answer needs a lot of time.

So Brazilian electoral process is a national process; of course, historically the support of foreign partners has been important. But what we are seeing in the current days is that the extreme right, which includes Trump, which includes President Bolsonaro in Brazil, and so many other leaderships in the current world, they are aligning themselves with great capital, with great industry, with the great tech companies to finance themselves worldwide.

Of course, Trump has already declared, even though indirectly, that he will support the extreme right in Brazil. By doing so, he'll do that financially, he'll do that technologically, and that's something that we are concerned about.

And as part of our reaction, we have to bring democracies and progressive nations together. For example, now, the next week, President Lula is going to meet President of Spain, Pedro Sanchez, Boric, president of Chile, and Pedro, president of Colombia, to discuss democracy in the world. So we are, of course, working or creating strategies to bring progressive nations together. The problem is the extreme right is being more effective in aligning forces, and that's very worrisome; they have more resources, they have less ethics, they manipulate information, they deal better with fake news. Of course we must be concerned about it, but we are working on strategies to contain such damage and to align and also to support progressive nations. So we'll see what's going to happen.

But also keeping in mind that the elections in Brazil is strong enough and Brazilian democracy is strong enough to show to the world that our process is a national process based on the sovereign will of the Brazilian population, and no foreign nation will have space or will have the right to interfere in such process.

Observer Network: So a final question. One of the positions that the far right in Brazil might align with is with the current US administration’s explicitly anti-BRICS view. But the upcoming election, by all accounts, is shaping up to be quite a competitive one that some candidate from the opposition could very well win. And so given this risk, especially to Brazil’s ongoing BRICS commitments, what do you think are some measures that could be done to build enduring civil society support for BRICS, regardless of election results?

Westmann: Well, that's something that is one of the great challenges of the current days, Jersey, worldwide is to make sure that we have institutions credible enough, especially international institutions and international agreements and mechanisms that go beyond the willingness of elected governments. Governments, they come and go, normally. These institutions, they remain.

So we are convinced here in Brazil that the role of civil society in this process is crucial. We have to increase the mechanisms of social participation in all sorts of spheres, from BRICS to UN institutions, to G20, to WTO. And we will support the role of civil society, including private sector, academy, social movements and all sorts of non-government stakeholders, to make sure that regardless of changes in governments, these institutions remain coherent and in line with the authentic wishes of the global population.

It's tough. Brazil now believes that a change of government would also impact strategies, would reduce the role and the voices of civil society nationally and internationally. But what we're trying to do is plant seeds. For example, we created the social G20 in the G20. We finally had the opportunity to bring the civil society to speak to the leaders at the BRICS. We are bringing civil society representatives to speak at Mercosur meetings, at Amazon Summit meetings. COP30 has been a process that has been reflecting our processes of social participation. We're bringing negotiators to talk to civil society. So we're trying to do our part. And we hope we'll have the chance to continue this project in the next year.

Interview Original Text:

Jersey Lee: Brazil is about to be subject, starting in August 1, to a 50% tariff by the U.S., that U.S. President Trump says is partly motivated by the prosecution against former President Bolsonaro. Yesterday, President Lula signed a trade reciprocity law that we will soon see the details of. So other than that, what are some of Brazil's other attempts to either fight back or resist this sudden trade aggression by the U.S.?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, that's a very complex question, Jersey, but I think it's not about fighting back. It's about making things right. So these unilateral sanctions or unilateral measures by Trump, they are completely not in synchronicity with the current global order.

First of all, we are talking about a sovereign country, a sovereign nation with a strong democracy, a democratic tradition, and a legal system that has its own independence, and we're prosecuting former President Bolsonaro for his attempt of coup d'etat. No other foreign country should have intention of influencing such process, considering that it's been following the democratic track. So that's the first part of it.

So that said, the idea of Brazil is always to negotiate diplomatically and try to find solutions to all sorts of contentions. But in this case, we are ready to apply reciprocal measures, and the idea is to apply equivalent tariffs to American products in Brazil. And also, and above all, thinking on the medium and long term, starting or increasing our strategy to diversify partnerships. And that's a place in which China, for instance, has a very special role. I think what it is doing is only speeding up an unavoidable process of fall of the U.S. hegemony. We will also take the case to the multilateral institutions that are responsible for dealing with such matters, such as the WTO and all other institutions that have worldwide acceptancy over their role as conciliatory or institutes to evaluate these matters globally. That's what we're doing. We're very sober about it. I think its been politically motivated and no foreign countries should interfere in our processes. That's how we're evaluating that.

Jersey Lee: So you mentioned about Brazil perhaps having a mindset not necessarily about fighting back, but more about making things right. And in this vein, President Lula's, I think, first reaction was that, and this was a quote, “Trump could have called, but instead posted the tariff news on his website—a complete lack of respect, which is typical of his behavior towards everyone”. So I suppose, first of all, would you say that perhaps the lack of respect is the primary issue? I suppose what this quote kind of says to me is that Brazil's first response was indeed to kind of try to find a way out of this. In this vein, there’s also the vice president's recent remarks about giving the U.S. a trade offer, which they haven't responded to. So I guess is that how Brazil is thinking about this?

Gustavo Westmann: Man, so that's the thing. Trump has a kind of behavioral pattern that makes him... I'm very confident that in the future, when we read history books, he will be one of the dumbest US leaders ever. That's something I'm very confident about, because he's only harming not only the world, but the US itself.

We are trying to be sober to deal with it, because you don't deal with foreign policy—Of course, passion is always part of the deal—but we have to be rational and think about the long term. I think what we are discussing here is an attempt of a foreign leader to influence our domestic processes that are following the due process of law. So that is the greatest deal. Pretty much everything he announced and he said was an attempt to influence the process against former President Bolsonaro, who indeed tried to lead a coup d'etat that included the assassination, an attempted assassination of President Lula, Vice President Alckmin, and Supreme Court Judge Alexandre de Moraes. So that's what's in the discussion here. And we are very clear that no country will influence this process. No sort of threats will influence this kind of processes. But we are very aware about the power of the US, its importance, its relevance to the Brazilian economy.

So I think now it's time to of course criticize, of course retaliate, of course express our dissatisfaction with what he's doing, but also to dialogue and try to find a solution by making it clear. If we won't find a solution through dialogue, then all the retaliation measures will be applied and that's how things are going to work.

Jersey Lee: So, obviously, Brazil is not the only country that has been slapped with tariffs. Aside from all the other general tariffs that follow from the previous so-called Liberation Day, Trump also threatened all BRICS countries with a 10% tariff, or basically any country that even aligns with BRICS.

So do you think that this threat will be effective in any way, either by perhaps deterring some potential partners from working with BRICS, or perhaps to undermine BRICS solidarity, or perhaps would it have the opposite effect of motivating BRICS?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, first of all, if it bothered him so much that means that BRICS is gaining relevance, okay? So that's a good thing, and that's something we must celebrate. BRICS has been created as an alternative to the current global order, and we are being successful in building this new order. So that's the first thing. If it bothers the U.S. so much, that means the BRICS is working. And that's good, a reason to celebrate.

Regarding the tariffs, first of all, it's very difficult to understand whether what he's saying is serious or not. So since the beginning of his administration, he has already promised things and came back and sat back and more. So we don't really know what's his deal. So that's something to be thinking. I definitely don't think it will affect Brics in a negative way. On the contrary, I'm pretty confident that we will increase the relations both commercially but also politically among Brics nations. And by doing so, I'm very confident that it will attract the attention of other nations and partners, trying also to diversify their partnerships and finding in Brics a good mechanism to start with. So actually, in the end of the day, that's good. That only reflects the strength of Brics in the current global order.

Jersey Lee: So there has also been some reports that the mayor of Rio wants to set up a BRICS headquarter in Rio. So thinking about this report, this brings to mind some discussions about the institutionalization of BRICS. Some people are very much supportive of having a headquarter to advance BRICS, to give it a structure, others might be concerned that it might bureaucratize the organization, might make it less efficient, and also might make it more rigid. So, even aside from where to have a potential BRICS headquarter, what’s your view of whether we should even have a BRICS headquarter?

Gustavo Westmann: I think we are very far from that kind of discussions in BRICS Jersey. We are now discussing the institutional improvement of the group and that's involving discussions on the new role of the new members, so lots of things in discussion, but we're very far from getting to the institutional or creating a secretariat or permanent secretariat for this; frankly speaking that's a discussion that has to be done by all members all together. The moment is not the best one for that, I believe, and again we're very far from that.

Jersey Lee: Looking back on the Rio leader summit and the events immediately before and after that, what would you say were the biggest results from Brazil's perspective? And also on the other hand, from Brazil's perspective, what are some perhaps misses or perhaps things that need further work?

Gustavo Westmann: Let's say that the current global context is extremely complex; so I believe that having a leader's declaration, having three other declarations, one on intelligence, one of financing the fight on climate change, the other one on health, they all reflect a great effort and a great commitment of BRICS countries. So that was a victory. We cannot deny it. So definitely the fact of putting BRICS agenda on the radar and having concrete results on that is definitely something to celebrate.

Jersey Lee: So moving to China-Brazil relations, one thing that's been recently discussed is a possibility of building a railway that links Chancay port with a port on the east coast of Brazil. So right now, apparently, it's just the start of feasibility studies. So from your perspective, what’s the feasibility of such a project, especially from an economic perspective?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, I don't really know the details about it, but what I can tell you regarding this combination of variables. First of all, I think the relationship between Brazil and China have already improved quite a lot. The challenge now is to improve in terms of quality. Our bilateral trade is huge, but we still lack high technology products, or we need to add value to our trade, especially on the Brazilian side. I think also we need to work more strategically together, and that's something that has been improving in recent years. We have to bring together our societies, bring together our scientific parks, universities. So that's something that still has to improve.

Jersey Lee: So you talked about bringing people from both sides together. And in May, when Lula visited Beijing, China offered a number of countries, including Brazil, visa-free access to China. Now, Brazil generally has a visa reciprocity system principle where generally any country that offers Brazil visa free access, Brazil does the same in exchange, and any country that stops offering Brazil visa free access, Brazil also stops offering visa free access in exchange. Given this, we should expect perhaps Brazil to soon offer Chinese visa-free access to Brazil. But that obviously hasn't happened before the BRICS Summit, so when could we expect this?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, that's a more complex discussion and it's under responsibility of our colleagues from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Definitely on the radar, so something we've been discussing, and I think it's gonna happen, we just need to figure out when; I would expect it to happen soon, but it's a lot more complex. You should not forget that China has 1.3 billion people. So that's not such an obvious decision to be made, it involve lots of variables, and it has to be taken carefully, but yes, it's totally on the radar, and let's see. We should keep monitoring that.

Jersey Lee: In terms of Brazil's general international approach, I listened to you speak at a recent conference where you mentioned one of Brazil's big international agendas is to get opposing sides to sit down together and talk and negotiate, especially out of conflicts. Of course, it's not just Brazil that's been positioning themselves this way. India has been talking about this. Turkey has been talking about this. UAE, Saudi Arabia, even the U.S. under Trump, even though Trump participated in the Iran strike, later Trump positioned himself as kind of a peacemaker between Israel and Iran. China has also pushed a number of rapprochement deals in the Middle East. So, given all of these countries interested in serving as kind of a negotiator or facilitator of negotiations. What's special about Brazil that makes it a good partner to negotiate resolution? Perhaps could you mention progress in Brazil's Ukraine peace proposal, as well as you mentioned your desire to see some statement condemning Israel in its war on Gaza, perhaps is there some attempt by Brazil to get peace there?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, let's say, before I answer, just stop and think. Which countries in the world would be able to moderate conflicts or to bring diverse opinions in such a polarized world together? Actually, there are very few. And Brazil would definitely come to everyone's mind as a first thing. Why is that?

Jersey Lee: So you mentioned working with China on getting peace in Ukraine. Is Brazil also working with the current US administration, which seems to be, at least until recently, very much for peace in that conflict?

Gustavo Westmann: Not really. Currently, our relations with the U.S. are not at their best for obvious reasons. And the way the U.S. has been positioning itself is extremely authoritarian, even though they are a democracy. So they're not really dialoguing with other nations in search for partnerships in solving the current conflict. So we're just monitoring things, but no, we are not working close with the US in these processes.

Jersey Lee: You mentioned your former role in Brazil’s embassy in India, working in the trade office. Obviously, this would be direct involvement in the connective tissue that ties BRICS countries together. Could you talk a bit about that, describe what you did?

Gustavo Westmann: I think the main thing out of these this experience, and thinking about BRICS, is having the opportunity to understand this country. I think by living in India—and I've been to China many, many times already—And by traveling, by knowing, by visiting, by understanding a little bit the societies of these countries, we better understand how BRICS makes sense and how we indeed can work together. To many people, it's still too far away. In your case, for example, you just came to Brazil. So you see, despite differences, you also see the potential of the relations between our nations and working together. In India, something that called my attention—and that's one of the cornerstones of BRICS—is that you see the world changing, you see the development going on; you see the same in China, like if you stay away from Shanghai just a couple of years, when you go back, the city, the landscape is already different, because progress is ongoing. That's something you don't see in Europe, and that's something you don't see in the US, especially Europe, that's the old—it's not bad, it's just the old. BRICS is the new, is the progress, the transformation, the new center of the world economy and consequently in the future of the political reality. So I think that's what I took the most from my experience at the Trade Office at the Embassy of Brazil in India.

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